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 Vampire Bat and Paw

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Bat serker
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PostSubject: Vampire Bat and Paw   Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:05 am

Anyone knows the terms for vampire bat and paw? I do not trust the list of terms given in here because they claim that bear is "bjorn" that might be true in modern Norwegian but in Old Norse bear was "ber" as in "bersekr"... Actually I want to make up the words "bear paw" and "vampire bat skin" the later would be vampire bat... Since I know for sure that "bear" is "ber" and not "bjorn" I do not trust that vampire bat was "Lethreblaka"... anyone has better sources on these words?

Edit: I have just checked that Leðrblaka is indeed the old norse term for vampire bat and bjorn for bear... (Leðrblaka=leather flapper so blaka = flapper) but I want the terms that one would use in constructing works like berseker or the like... anyone can help please?
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Sveinn
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PostSubject: Re: Vampire Bat and Paw   Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:56 pm

There is no sourced Old Norse term for vampire or vampire bat. Simply because Vampire bats are from Central and South America, and the Norse speaking world never reached further than North America. But of course, one thing this project does is adapt the language for modern use, so since we in the modern world know about vampire bats, necessity brings us to find out what a Norseman would have called a "vampire bat".
The vampire myth comes after the Norse age, and far away in Slavic territory. The only possible Norse age equivalent to a vampire would be a "draugr".
But since draugar aren't specifically known for drinking blood, a draugr bat wouldn't make any sense.
The only thing I can think of that would be likely is the term "blood bat", so a vampire bat in Old Norse could be "Blóðleðrblaka".

Words for "paw" in Old Norse are usually either "lámr" or "hrammr". Hrammr is more specifically used with bears though. Bjarnarhrammr - bear's paw.
Trust the terms given here, they're all well sourced, and if they aren't sourced words, they're either reconstructions or new coinages. And each coinage is debated over thoroughly before publicising.
No Norseman would ever have referred to a bear as "ber", it only exists in "berserkr" and "berserksgangr".
"Ber" alone means "berry". They might have referred to a female bear as a "bera" which is a rare form of the more common word for she-bear which is "birna". Ber at the start of a word more commonly means "bare" as in naked.

berfœttr - bare-footed

The "ber" in Berserkr probable does derive from the she-bear word "bera".
Though when constructing words with "bear", it is most common to use "bjarn" or "bjarnar", which is the stem form or genitive of Bjǫrn.
For exampe:
bjarnfeldr - bear-skin cloak
bjarnhúnn - bear cub
bjarnveiðar - bear hunting
bjarnarhíð - bear's lair
bjarnarhold - bear's flesh
bjarnarhrammr - bear's paw

Serkr means "shirt", Berserkr - bear shirt, i.e. a man who wears a bear shirt.
Do you want a term that describes a man who would wear some sort of shirt or cloak made from the skins of lots of little vampire bats stitched together?
Because berserkr is a iconic term, and warriors similar to berserkar who wore other animal skins usually were called heðnar. A berserkr who wore a wolf skin was called "Úlfheðinn". So most likely you would want the term "Blóðleðrblǫkuheðinn". Which is a bit of a mouthful.
Why not just "Leðrblǫkuheðinn"?
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PostSubject: Re: Vampire Bat and Paw   Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:01 pm

Sveinn wrote:
There is no sourced Old Norse term for vampire or vampire bat. Simply because Vampire bats are from Central and South America, and the Norse speaking world never reached further than North America. But of course, one thing this project does is adapt the language for modern use, so since we in the modern world know about vampire bats, necessity brings us to find out what a Norseman would have called a "vampire bat".
The vampire myth comes after the Norse age, and far away in Slavic territory. The only possible Norse age equivalent to a vampire would be a "draugr".
But since draugar aren't specifically known for drinking blood, a draugr bat wouldn't make any sense.
The only thing I can think of that would be likely is the term "blood bat", so a vampire bat in Old Norse could be "Blóðleðrblaka".

thanks for this data... My interest in old norse is mostly etymological... Building new words that have etymological relationship with older words... I am self-taught in the realm of etymology a lot of things but beyond the Greek and latin terms its hard to remember all the terms (I am bilingual, that means I speak Engish and Spanish, Latin is the most usual source of etymology in both languages... Old norse does not appear that often)...

I guess yo uare right to say the vampire bat did not exist in the reaches known by the people who spoke old norse... But the myths of blood-sucking werebats and bloodsucking werewolves and other blood sucking therianthropes did exist within their reach, maybe even among them (I also love mythology but I concentrate on comparative mythology so sometimes I forget what myth was believed where and by whom)... The term vampire was lent to the term bat to create the word vampire bat because these bats were close to mythical vampire bats (which were more often associated with screech owls rather than with bats, but wolves and ravens were also good for that since many raven deities ate the corpses, the valkyries and ravens were often thought to be one and the same, well, you probably already know this)

You may already know that vampires were not always undead but they were often a type of sorcerer or someone possessed by a type of demon or spirit... the word vampire has slavic origins and is hard to trace... in contrast Dracula, the most famous vampire derives his name from dragon that derives its name from a verb which means "to see" or "to watch" or "to be alert" or "to give a profound observation" or "to see beyond".

Sveinn wrote:
for "paw" in Old Norse are usually either "lámr" or "hrammr". Hrammr is more specifically used with bears though. Bjarnarhrammr - bear's paw.
Trust the terms given here, they're all well sourced, and if they aren't sourced words, they're either reconstructions or new coinages. And each coinage is debated over thoroughly before publicising.
No Norseman would ever have referred to a bear as "ber", it only exists in "berserkr" and "berserksgangr".
"Ber" alone means "berry". They might have referred to a female bear as a "bera" which is a rare form of the more common word for she-bear which is "birna". Ber at the start of a word more commonly means "bare" as in naked.

berfœttr - bare-footed

The "ber" in Berserkr probable does derive from the she-bear word "bera".
Though when constructing words with "bear", it is most common to use "bjarn" or "bjarnar", which is the stem form or genitive of Bjǫrn.
For exampe:
bjarnfeldr - bear-skin cloak
bjarnhúnn - bear cub
bjarnveiðar - bear hunting
bjarnarhíð - bear's lair
bjarnarhold - bear's flesh
bjarnarhrammr - bear's paw

Well... You see I was using this etymology to build a character combining other characters (Aquaman, but specifically the one with the water bearer hand, with Green Lantern and since Arthur means bear and my character was female I named her Ursula and thought of the berseker however in her case it is her hands which are the source of her power, not the pelt she wears, her hands are bear paws, so... Bjarnarhrammer would be good, but I will see how to tweak the word so it is not a mouthful in English, much like "berserkr" becomes "berseker" maybe "Bearnarharmmer")

Sveinn wrote:
Serkr means "shirt", Berserkr - bear shirt, i.e. a man who wears a bear shirt.
Do you want a term that describes a man who would wear some sort of shirt or cloak made from the skins of lots of little vampire bats stitched together?
Because berserkr is a iconic term, and warriors similar to berserkar who wore other animal skins usually were called heðnar. A berserkr who wore a wolf skin was called "Úlfheðinn". So most likely you would want the term "Blóðleðrblǫkuheðinn". Which is a bit of a mouthful.
Why not just "Leðrblǫkuheðinn"?

Thanks for the suggestion I used the term blakaserker for a mecha for a character I am making (based on batman, batwoman, ironman and the spiderman that had a metal suit in the last two episodes of the 90s spiderman)... I guess you want to restore old norse... And you may be offended that I am not much help in that... I mean, I life in a country with no old norse background... But by coining new words to old themes I guess I am contribiuting with your goal...

For instance I think the lexical part that can be sacrificed in leatherblokuhedinn is leather (I am using English spelling, I have a hard time using the ð which is sort of like a d and sort of like a th) because the word for bat is literally "leather flapper" so why not blood-flapper? for a vampire bat I mean... Anyway I guess it would be good if new coinages are list as new coinages and older terms as sourced terms... But back on trail... Blood flapper would be Blóthblakuhethinn or Blothblakaserker... I know you say that a berserker who wore a wolfskin was a ulfhethin but that is like 1 Vs. 1 the wolfman was a ulfhethinn and the werebear was a berserker... What about other therianthropes? Vampires (like Dracula) are certainly a type of werebat (although Dracula is a werebat and weredragon)... You see I am highly influenced by AD&D but I already loved mythology when I learnt of AD&D and it influenced me even more... What are your thoughs on this?

EDIT: You can see I try to adapt the words to the English alphabet... I do this for sake of simplicity... I mean... If the idea is to reinstate Old Norse the English alphabet is mostly the Latin alphabet... Wouldn't it be better to use runes? So since some compromise is being used by using most of the English alphabet... why not more compromise in using all the English alphabet? (For instance I have a similiar problem with shipibo, a tongue I am studying... they did not had an alphabet and created their own alphabet based on the English alphabetbecuase they were taught to write and read by the ÇEnglish-speaking missionaries, but they live in Peru, a country that speaks Spanish, they should be using the Spanish alphabet I say, in the end they have created their own alphabet based on the English interpretation of the latin alphabet)
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Þorbjǫrn Bjǫrnsson
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PostSubject: Re: Vampire Bat and Paw   Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:53 pm

According to the Norwegian wikipedia article on "draug", Ola Raknes translated "vampire" as "blodsugar-draug" in his (nynorsk) Norwegian-English dictionary. So "blóðsúgr-draugr" (lit. "bloodsucker-draugr") would probably be the closest word to vampire in Old Norse. A possible Old Norse word for vampire bat could therefore be "Blóðsúgr-leðrblaka" - bloodsucking-bat.
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